Monstrous Flesh and the Feral Feminine: Clelia McElroy on Horror

Tarot Interviews plenary community venture that explores the representation of women and non-binary individuals in horror through curated film courses, events and thought-provoking podcasts. Clearly, alongside co-host dr megan kenny, fearlessly pull back the shower curtain on the origins of horror tropes, offering a fresh and inclusive perspective on the genre.

Let's shuffle the deck and uncover the stories of, shaped clearly as journey when I got message, it was just so such an amazing, you know, such an amazing thing to receive, because I've only recently got into reading tarot myself, after years of being completely cynical about it, because my mom is really into all this and to the point where I mean, yeah, she's a very intuitive person, which I love and I've really learned to love. But I think, growing up in a really small community, I think people were very judgmental of it and it's something that I really actively rejected for a really long time. But actually, you know, growing older and actually that's something that we bond over a lot. So in the last few months, I got myself a deck as well and started doing little readings. I'm like really absolutely loving it. So when I got your message, I got myself a deck as well and started doing little readings. I'm like really absolutely loving it. So when I got your message, I was just like this is amazing. It's like a message from the universe.

Thank, you so much and thank you for joining me on the show as well.

Delighted to be here.

Excellent. Now I'm detecting a very slight trace of an accent that doesn't sound like it's from Beeston.

How rude.

Where else have you lived, apart from Nazim?

So I'm originally from France, from a little place called Carcassonne.

Carcassonne. I've only been there twice and je parle français un petit peu, but that's as far as I go, but Carc's beautiful.

It is a beautiful place. So I've been in the UK for about 20 years now, so you know I always get really nervous, especially when I tell people that I'm French and people start talking back at me in French because my French is abysmal. Now, as a result, I know it's like it's hard to believe. Obviously, yes, I'm fluent in French, but wasn't. I knew it's like it's hard to believe. Obviously, yes, I'm fluent in french, but I. But, yes, it doesn't come as naturally to me as it used to. So so, yeah, I left when I was 18 and I've always been in the uk since. So but yes, it is, it is a beautiful place. I have conflicted emotions linked to it because I just can't. It kind of never felt like a home to me, whereas when I arrived in the uk immediately I was like this is my culture, which, which I know is a weird thing to say.

One of my great regrets is choosing French for my GCSEs. Now, the reason why I picked French was at the time I was in love with a lady called Heather Brown and I wanted to impress her with Baudelaire's poetry and I wanted to be able to recite it in the original French. And I mean, I love Baudelaire's poetry and I'm very glad that I did that. But when I went to France I was thinking this this doesn't feel right. I was in Paris and you know, with the graffiti and the smell and the places that I went to, the only place that I really liked was Notre Dame. I visited Sacré-Cœur and it gave me really weird vibes Went all around Pigalle because of course I'm a tourist and of course you do. I must say that Notre Dame, that was the crown jewel. Hopefully they've rebuilt it in a way that's fitting for the building. It was a gorgeous place, especially the gargoyles on the top and the view over the prison rooftops.

Yes, it's really. Yeah, it's something that's really special, but I can see you know the disconnect that you're talking about. I mean, I assume that this is what you mean. It's.

Paris syndrome that I'm suffering from?

Yes, no, from the poetry of Baudelaire to you know, to actually visiting Paris is quite a big step, isn't?

Yes, it was a bit of a culture shock.

Yes, yes, and may I say, by the way, although, as I said, I have conflicting emotions about you know my culture and being French, but so being Parisian and being French, it's two different things.

Oh really yeah right, well, I do believe it's time for the cards. So what I'm going to do keep shuffling until you say stop, okay, and then I'll split the deck and then I'll shuffle again, and then you pick either the top or the bottom card, right, okay? Yeah, so you know there's no chicanery, okay, so we're starting with the seven of swords. What vibes do you get from my card?

It looks heavy, looks like a heavy burden. Yeah, I don't know. I'm not sure. I don't really know much about the significance of this card. I don't know anything about the significance card, sorry.

Rather I should be honest about that, okay um the seven of swords can often represent um duplicity, it can represent betrayal, it can represent, I think, um etu brute, know, the whole kind of knives in the back, inspiring. Okay, that's the kind of thing that we're looking at. So, as you're a lovely person and you would never do such a thing, maybe it's all coming out now. When it comes to your talks, when it comes to the work that guides you, how do you handle sensitive topics without compromising your authenticity or integrity?

I mean I think then, the reason why I do this, the reason why I started doing these talks and these courses and the reason why I still do it, is because I do love facilitating conversations, even if they're difficult conversations. So we were talking before and I was saying that in every talk, in every course that I do, there will be those difficult questions arising and I mean I don't see my role as just I'm not there to justify one viewpoint or another. I know what I believe and I think it's very clear in the ideas that I discuss in those courses, but by any means I'm not there to impose my viewpoint on people. I think you know from those difficult questions there are so many interesting conversations that arises Sometimes you can put a, you know you can put people's back up, but my role as a facilitator is just to make people comfortable to ask those questions and therefore people to have discussions.

And if it gets a bit heated then you know all the better for it. It's like we're there to share and you know it's really difficult to change people's minds right at the end of the day. But I think if people are open to have these conversations then you know it's a beautiful thing.

Yes, I mean having witnessed one of your fabulous talks myself. I did come home and talked about what I'd heard, and one of the first things that I was asked was well, do they do one about men? Are you often faced with that? But what about men?

All the time, all the time, and I guess my you know. My answer to this is I can only talk about the things that I know. Um, so I you know the same way that you know I touch about a. You know the same way that you know I touch about. You know a lot of topics in the course and actually I do talk about. You know the role of men in horror and you know we have these discussions around this, but you know equally talk about the role of non-binary people in horror and you know people of color in horror and everything.

And you know I can offer the information that I have on this topic. I can offer the information that I have on this topic, but the idea is really to open it up to people whose experience relate to those things, and that is the point of it. I'm not there to be an authority on anything. I'm just there to encourage people to look at those films and look at those texts in a way that relates to their own experiences and to hopefully make you know, make them look at it, yeah, in an interesting way, and to reflect on how, you know, that shapes our experiences in society and how we can, you know. Yeah, learn something and be better humans, I guess.

As part of the Seven of Swords, about countering a pakeness with transparency. When you arrive in a venue and you're talking about monstrous things, you're talking about horror, you're talking about evil things, obviously through the lens of feminism. Have you had any problems with venues raising an eyebrow about your subject matter, asking you are you going to be talking about blood? Have you had any challenges in booking venues? I? Have you had any challenges in booking venues?

I haven't had any challenges so much in booking venues. I've definitely had those questions about you know who is it suitable for? You know what are you themes that I'm covering? If you know there's an age limit, and you know my response is always that I try I make it as inclusive as possible. You know I put it out there basically for people to decide. It's like yes, you know, those are the things that we're covering in the courses that I do. I don't show um explicit clips from films, for example, even if we're talking about very explicit themes. I'm like you know this is out there for you to to look at if you, if you're interested in this. But equally, my, my aim with you when I talk about those things is not to put people off. It's on the contrary, what I love about doing talks and courses like this is to have people who come from a place of.

I hate horror. I don't understand what horror has to do with feminism. In fact, you know those two things are completely opposite. So you know how can you bring those two things together? And I always say you know, come along, let me change your mind and I do it in a really respectful way. That you know that means that people all of a sudden engage with a genre that is, you know, historically, you know has a very misogynistic label attached to it, in a way that makes people think maybe maybe it's convenient for some people that you know that that horror, you know, appears that way to mainstream audiences. You know who does it serve by doing this? And actually, when we deep dive into it, all those themes they've serving, you know they should serve us, as you know, as, as women, as non-binary people, you know to, um, you know to, to, yeah, to connect in a different you know on a different level.

Absolutely and I can see because your eyes blazing as you're telling me this you must be so good at these talks and events that you hold to be able to connect with people of a like mind, especially with you. Know the prevailing cultures that are increasingly attacking you. Know the rights of people who are non-binary, the people who are different to the norm. I was happily watching your talk with the collection of weirdos around me myself, as a self-confessed weirdo. Right second card hello. Oh, you've probably got a lot to say about this one.

What do we see here? I don't know. It's encouraging. I'm really glad to see this after the swords um, I don't know. Hopefully, speaking to my passion for the subject and being able to communicate this effectively into other people, I'm hoping, or my desire, to be loved by the community.

Maybe it's funny that this card should come up, because I was discussing just the other day with a friend of mine the similarities between this and the devil card, which I imagine is something that's probably popped up. You know the films and the media that you would normally look at and how the devil card corrupts the image of the lovers and plants chains around their necks and they're kind of, you know, being yoked by the um. You know the infernal almighty above them instead of the celestial almighty here. Okay, the lovers is that kind of connection of of true union. Could you share how your collaboration with your co-host, dr megan kenny, has influenced the direction and content of your podcast?

yes, uh, so meg and I met because she issued, I did one of the courses. I offered it online and she joined the course and we immediately there was like such a strong connection there. She was so interested, so passionate about what I was talking about and immediately after the course ended, she was very keen for us to be in touch and to work together, to work on something together, and the podcast actually was the Monsters Fresh podcast was her idea, which I was like, yeah, why not? You know, that sounds great. I'm always up for you know, talking about you know, talking about those themes and women in horror with other women. It's like how incredible.

This is the reason why I started this. The community course in the first place was to meet people, like-minded people, and Meg is a folklorist, so she's coming at it from a really interesting angle because she's very interested. She loves horror, she was writing about horror, she's a very proficient writer, but she's also very interested about the connection between horror stories and folklore and mythology, so bringing those things together and this is a thing that I'm interested in as well, but she's done extensive research into it.

You mentioned previously that she's a folklorist. What is that?

Well, it's a drastic. We have this discussion all the time. I think it's kind of it's a term that Meg has appropriated basically saying who's going to tell me I'm not a folklorist? I am passionate about folklorists. I write about folkloric mythology. I am a specialist in the subject. Therefore I am a folklorist.

She's the original. She's like folklorist zero.

She is exactly. Yeah, she really is, and I do love this. I mean, I think Meg gives me so much confidence into what we're doing and what we're talking about. And I'm a very anxious person and I very often feel like am I doing the right thing? Am I the right person to talk about those things and bring people together? But Meg is very much, like you know, pushed all those things aside and you know, if you have something that you want to say, you have to say it and you'll find the right people. So I think Meg really brings that dimension of this is important and what we talk about is important, and there are people out there who want to talk about those things and we want to bring them together and that's the joy of it. So, yeah, I just absolutely love working with and working together.

And you mentioned, meg is living in far-flung Manchester. How often do you get to meet?

We don't get to meet very often, to be honest. I think we've been working together for a couple of years now and we've met only a couple of times in person. You know, that's the beauty of the digital age, right in some respect? I mean, we're on Zoom, you know, every week, and we respect I mean, we're on uh zoom, you know every week, and we, you know, we're on whatsapp every day, you know even voice messages. So I thought we feel very connected, even though we know we'd love to be able to, to get together more often, but yes, this is the first in-person interview for tarot interviews.

I have to say thank you so much for coming here, because we tend to we use a Riverside to talk to people, mainly sometimes on Zoom as well. It's quite refreshing to actually have you here in person, right? Okay, so your third card. That was a good one to get. Now, what I'm doing is I'm keeping these down here so they don't go back into the deck, so you don't get the same ones twice. Shame.

More love out of that.

I think it's just so people don't get death, death and death, of course. Well, let me give these a little shuffle, and it's funny how some cards just don't come up as well like um, yeah, I'm gonna tempt fate here. I never get temperance. Okay, I never get the world two cards that just don't feature the lovers. I see a lot, the hanged man a lot. It's one of my favorite cards.

That's really interesting, I mean, and we talked about a little bit before and I was saying that I recently got into tarot and doing, you know, little readings, uh, but he had that card hangman never. Never comes out for me and think temperance, maybe once for for someone else. But you know, you're right in there.

Rare cards to uh, they're elusive, it's almost like they're. You know, if there were pokemon they'd be the shinies, you know. Do you know what I'm really tempted one day just to get a stack of, if they don't cost a small fortune? Now? Uh, sort of gen one pokemon cards and just do a reading. With that right, you've got. You've got squirtle. Talk to me about this now, that's true talent.

You're reading around this let's right Shuffling away.

Stop, Okay, the three of cups. How's that looking?

I mean always when I See cups, I always think, oh, is it about, you know, filling your cup with hope? So yeah, and you know, b3 is a very important number in numerology and in terms of Coven as well. I mean, I'm getting hints of witches in Coven. Coven's a good word.

I imagine that's something that comes up in your talks a lot, very much so.

I'm always transposing horror themes on whatever I'm doing.

I have to ask is Coven specific to groups of non-binary and female-presenting people? Can men join Covens?

I think so, absolutely. I mean, don't get me wrong again, I have no authority on this, but in my view, Coven is another word for community, in my opinion, so it should be inclusive and accepting.

Right Three of Cups. My question for you is how do you foster that sense of community and collaboration with your audience and peers?

It's something that I've been thinking about a lot recently. I actually attended a panel discussion on community building at the beginning of February and it was so eye-opening and it was so enlightening in the sense that I think that when I started Monstrous Flesh I'd just moved to Nottingham and it was very much a case of, ok, I want to meet people who are interested in the same thing that I am, want to talk about the same issues that I'm interested in. And it was very much. It was very grassroots and you know it started with a group of 10 people meeting at a community centre and then kind of grew from there. And you know, obviously it hasn't. You know it's not that he's grown into something, you know, enormous or something, but I kind of feel like along the way maybe I have lost this a little bit, and so it was really nice to, at the start of this year, to put it back to what I wanted to do when I started Monster Special, which was to grow a community as much as possible. But the way that I like to think that I do this is by working with other groups from. You know, in the film scene in Nottingham, somebody who I absolutely love working with is Emma Duncan from Fortune and Glory Film Club, who's a inclusive queer film club in Nottingham, and Emma is very interested in horror as well.

We met through the course again. We met through the course again and what we started doing is, each year, on International Women's Day, we started running an event about women in horror, showing short films or feature films, inviting artists and creators local artists and creators to come and talk and sell their wares and, you know, having this big party basically celebrating women and women in horror. And we're doing it'll be the fourth iteration this year doing it so excited, and these are the things that remind me why I started, most especially why I want to continue doing it. So, yeah, every activity that I do, the zine as well, the most special zine was started as a way to, you know, give an outlet to people who are passionate about horror and about writing, who don't necessarily have any formal training, but to give them a place to be published and to share all those things that they're passionate about with the community, who is always hungry, always bloodthirsty.

You do mention in your zine the term feral feminine, which is a wonderful idea. Do you think that reflects the? If you were to I don't know if you were to get all of the people who attend your events and pick somebody else at random do you feel that these are people who typically would be fairly feminine?

I really hope so. Yeah, I mean so the theme the feral feminine, and the first issue of the journal. We did it because we did a film season in collaboration with Nottingham Contemporary and it was about folklore and feminine and the monstrous feminine, and then we called it the feral feminine feminine. But it's because a lot of the themes that we talk about when I do the course, when I do talks, even in the podcast, is about feminine rage and how, you know, in society, in everyday life, there's something that we have to very much keep under wrap, because that's not what society want women, how women to behave, right, I mean, violence as a concept is very gendered. It's accepted of men I'm not saying it's accepted, but it's. You know it's not acceptable, rather, but it is accepted widely that you know men are violent, but that women should be angry and revolt is something that is very it's an object still in today's society and that's really, you know, it's ridiculous. Right, 2025, we're still talking about you know, are women allowed to be angry?

Was it the Greeks who had? Was it the Menaids, women who were just stampeding? You know, cavorting, drinking, shredding, all in their path.

Exactly like. Bring that back, Like what were we scared to be, you know, to live in our true selves scared to be, you know to, to leave in our true selves.

Sorry, I'm just looking through the uh design here.

Um, I'm just caught by the depiction of medusa here yeah, done by a fantastic local nottingham artist or amina mamoge, and that was the the logo for the first season of the podcast. We will say medusa is a wonderful patron saint.

Yes, are you assembling like a creative super team here? You shouldn't know all the illustrators, the people he'd run film festivals. Nottingham feels like a very, um, a very small city sometimes compared to the likes of manchester and birmingham, but it is so rich when it comes to, so it's closer output, what trades or kind of?

Think of what the word would be what um outlets of creativity?

Do people who connect with tend to have?

To have literally everything, and that is I feel like this is my goal. It's like I want to. I want to know everyone, everyone who's like, who has a you know, even the smallest shred of interest in this. But yeah, writers, illustrators podcasters, film programmers, people who own galleries.

Horror is having such a moment and it's wonderful for what I'm doing that people are like oh, you take a recent success in terms of box office, of the substance, people are talking about this film and body horror. And it can be frustrating, I think, for horror lovers that people feel like, oh, this is our thing and you know, actually it's been around for a really long time. And like now, because it's having this moment in mainstream media, you know people are taking it seriously. But I think it's great. It's like let's talk about it and let's you know, the more people engage with it, the better for everyone, surely? But yeah, but in terms of the Nottingham community, I mean, as you said, it's a small city but it packs such a powerful punch in terms of talent, the talent in the city, just it blows my mind.

I spent 15 years living in Cambridge before moving to Nottingham. I mean, I was kind of all over the place Cambridge, london, bristol but as soon as I arrived in and I tried in that time to get film communities off the ground, but it just never really happened as soon as I arrived in Nottingham it was like people just welcomed me with open arms and it was just I don't know, there's something, something in the water in Nottingham. I love it.

So if people listening to this have felt their bloodlust stirring and the night in their veins, how would they be able to either get involved or come along to any of these events? What's the best way?

So they can link with me via Instagram or any social media platform. They can look at the website monstersfleshcouk. Just send me a message and I'd love to hear from anyone.

Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for coming here today. Thank you, that was so great. Thank you so much Thank you for joining us on this captivating episode of Tarot Interviews. Heartfelt thanks to Clelia McElroy for taking us through the worlds of horror and representation. To explore more of Clelia's work, including upcoming events for the Monstrous Flesh podcast, visit https://monstrousflesh. co. uk. Stay tuned for our next episode, where we meet more curious minds.